tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-937390557356997344.post5381663300891101308..comments2024-03-22T03:59:39.188-07:00Comments on Dive into Worldbuilding: The Myth of the Native SpeakerJuliette Wadehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-937390557356997344.post-76144442099458803482010-03-16T09:20:11.301-07:002010-03-16T09:20:11.301-07:00Thanks for the comment, Mike! Great, flavorful ex...Thanks for the comment, Mike! Great, flavorful examples.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-937390557356997344.post-91137743488860641472010-03-15T19:47:34.163-07:002010-03-15T19:47:34.163-07:00I asked a fellow in Chennai how to learn Tamil and...I asked a fellow in Chennai how to learn Tamil and he said, "You can't." <br><br>There are all sorts of ambiguities in Russian. Plenty of words have more than one meaning. Ya xochu miru might mean "I want peace" or "I want [the] world." German likewise. The noun "Original" could mean something like a work of art that is without precedent, or it could mean a flaky person. And so it goes. <br><br>A Venezuelan in Vienna told of an attempt to order a particular local pastry - two of them - and a mild pronunciation slip [due to Spanish having no umlaut, iirc] he wound up ordering two of her boobs. OTOH, a Tico I met once ordered a fresca in [I think] Honduras and discovered it did not mean a lemon-lime soda as it did in Costa Rico but rather a male prostitute. Both the Venezuelan and the Tico had to leave the premises quickly, without either pastry or soft drink.TheOFloinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14756711106266484327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-937390557356997344.post-42240041333177497862010-03-13T18:01:26.779-08:002010-03-13T18:01:26.779-08:00Thanks, Juliette.My comment about 'world langu...Thanks, Juliette.<br><br>My comment about 'world language' has a bit to do with that old British colonial saw, "They will understand if you speak it loudly and slowly enough." That is, there's a widespread assumption that people _should_ speak English, much less, speak it well. Any variety of major-nation English. <br>(This may have diminished, slightly, in recent years.) <br><br>You mentioned Urdu-speaking friends, and in this narrow context, I'm not sure I've ever once heard, or heard of, or even heard about, any jokes in Urdu. Never mind that tens of millions speak that language.<br><br>I'm not familiar enough with ambiguities in languages other than English, thus my misapplication of the term 'flaw.' I know that Japanese lacks certain gender-specific words, and that could be awkward. It was years before my wife consistently remembered to use "he" and "she" in proper context. <br><br>Paul C, certified gone-native speaker of . . .paul-carlsonhttp://paul-carlson.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-937390557356997344.post-35182252064169660622010-03-13T12:56:37.558-08:002010-03-13T12:56:37.558-08:00I once met a woman who claimed that English is a s...I once met a woman who claimed that English is a superior language because you can play with it and make jokes. She had experiences like the ones you mention here, where she tried to make jokes in German and had boring Germans tell her how that was not proper use of the language. After that she was convinced that word play is unknown or perhaps impossible in German, and maybe some other languages as well...åkahttp://annien.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-937390557356997344.post-10817431083169839622010-03-13T12:35:17.807-08:002010-03-13T12:35:17.807-08:00Dang, just wrote a long post, and the server glitc...Dang, just wrote a long post, and the server glitched. (Need to take my own advice about writing in a different text window!) <br><br>How does the status of English as a 'world language' affect this discussion? <br><br>English does have major flaws. Consider the example phrase: "Bill told Sam he loves his wife." Perfectly clear in many languages, but of spoken while drunk in English, this could produce a homicide. <br><br>Juliette, great point about "would" vs. "should" say. Common, and done without thinking. <br>On the flip side, my earliest Spanish teacher often emphasized we ought to say "como esta usted" rather than "que pasa." She much preferred the formal language.<br><br>I've had Hispanic folks tell me they wished that English speakers would _not_ allow their language to get all funky, in casual conversation. (It becomes much harder for the learner to pick up formal English.)paul-carlsonhttp://paul-carlson.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-937390557356997344.post-30209855368257685372010-03-11T20:57:03.233-08:002010-03-11T20:57:03.233-08:00Interesting, Atsiko. I'm not sure about what ...Interesting, Atsiko. I'm not sure about what you say about a native speaker not understanding why the student can't pick up the language as easily as they did. If you're speaking of a language teacher, I think that's unlikely. And while people may not remember their first verbal language acquisition, I'm sure they'd remember being in school and struggling with issues of grammar and usage, etc. much as we would. There certainly are people out there who have very little awareness of speakers of foreign language at all; that would influence their behavior, but those people wouldn't probably end up being in the position of language teacher.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-937390557356997344.post-69194453345707609412010-03-11T18:36:47.664-08:002010-03-11T18:36:47.664-08:00Eh, two versions of "to be" ain't ba...Eh, two versions of "to be" ain't bad. That's what Italian has. jk<br><br>I think that we might draw an analogy(which may get me lynched) by looking at native speaker "privilege". (Here comes langfail '10)<br><br>A native speaker has trouble understanding why a student can't pick up the language as "easily" as they did. It's probably relevant that most people don't remember the time when they didn't speak their own language very well. But, the benefit of having someone who is not an L1 teach the class is balanced out some by the fact that your teacher probably had similar trouble learning English, or whatever language instruction is in.atsikohttp://atsiko.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-937390557356997344.post-34771898502600514042010-03-11T17:50:53.154-08:002010-03-11T17:50:53.154-08:00Atsiko,I think you're right that being a good ...Atsiko,<br><br>I think you're right that being a good speaker of a language is independent of being a good teacher of the language, at least to some degree. I wouldn't argue that non-native teachers are "better," just that they can sometimes have a level of linguistic awareness as a result of their study that a native teacher may not have. This is of course not to say that native teachers cannot have this kind of awareness - but for them, it would require a different kind of study. Having a teacher who speaks the language of the learner can be helpful, especially if there is a lot of grammar explanation going on - but it isn't always practical (as in classes where the students have several different native languages), and there is a major branch of language-teaching research that argues that grammar explanations are not very helpful to language learning anyway. The process is mysterious and non-linear, but I think it's safe to say that it's good to look at the task of language learning from multiple angles.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-937390557356997344.post-49985434087014795562010-03-11T15:23:16.022-08:002010-03-11T15:23:16.022-08:00I've actually spent some time thinking about t...I've actually spent some time thinking about this, by way of reflecting on my own grasp - or lack thereof - of the English language. I do a lot of things wrong. I use words incorrectly, make up neologisms, coin phrases, use too many dashes and semicolons - and probably not correctly, and am often overly parenthetical. Certainly I have counterparts in other languages!<br><br>My worst experiences learning languages have been with native speakers, though I don't want to conclude that this always has to be the case. The value of native speakers comes from their "built-in" grasp of pronunciation, culture, and cultural idioms. But that they know a language doesn't mean they know *about* a language or understand the learning process for say, a native English speaker. The teachers I had were most unsympathetic in this regard, as though they just couldn't understand why it was difficult for somebody else to learn - becuase they couldn't possibly understand.<br><br>One of the most praised Spanish books I've come across recently is called "Breaking Out of Beginners Spanish" and is written by a non-native. People tend to feel that this guy "gets it" when he addresses common obstacles for english speakers learning spanish. How could a native speaker possibly understand why having two different words for "To be" is difficult?<br><br>-Dave KMeindzaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17463956045443466478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-937390557356997344.post-57203658589321928602010-03-11T15:21:03.431-08:002010-03-11T15:21:03.431-08:00Great points. I think native speakers are great f...Great points. I think native speakers are great for practicing conversation, but they aren't necessarily the best teachers. <br><br>I remember being in my Italian 101 class, and the teacher, who is Italian, was trying to explain verbs that required the pronomi oggetto indiretto. It didn't work too well. And it wasn't helped by his grasp of English. That's another thing to consider. If your teacher does not speak english well...<br><br>I also encountered the "I understood you" example in that class. The teacher would not correct clearly wrong responses, because he understood the student.atsikohttp://atsiko.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-937390557356997344.post-19284948260913464292010-03-11T12:03:04.203-08:002010-03-11T12:03:04.203-08:00I remember working on an oral history project with...I remember working on an oral history project with non-native speakers of English where the interviewer was a native English speaker who also spoke their first language. He still found most of them wanting to do them in English! <br><br>I suppose if he'd translated them all, they'd all have been in something like 'his' voice, and how do you translate/invent different colloquial voices for fifteen different real people...? Whereas in the end they all came off the page in a way I don't think a translation ever would.hampshireflyerhttp://hampshireflyer.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com